A few questions about UBOs

[anara]

How does one know whether or not the UBO he is getting will withstand punctures from the outside, and if it is set up properly?

Explain how EINs are used with a UBO...only for bank accounts?

If you make a deposit into a bank, and it is over $3000, do you give them your ss number? Who makes the deposits?

If the net profits are distributed at the end of the year to the holders, is this considered a taxable event? If one is not liable for income taxes according to the definitions in the tax code, does a UBO change their status? Can one use the funds in the UBO throughout the year; deposit paychecks into the trust?

Do the trustees resign? I saw the contents of the UBO and there was something about that.

[DaleSVP]

How does one know whether or not the UBO he is getting will withstand punctures from the outside, and if it is set up properly?

There are no guarantees in life. This is why I've always advocated people need to do their own research and 'get understanding'. So far as we know our UBO is puncture proof - but with millions of hungry lawyers and bureaucrats out there one never knows....

Explain how EINs are used with a UBO...only for bank accounts?

So far as I know (I'm no lawyer and this is not legal advise) only banks demand an EIN so they can be in compliance with their private contract with the FED. There is no law I'm aware of that FORCES an American citizen to have EIN numberings.

If you make a deposit into a bank, and it is over $3000, do you give them your ss number? Who makes the deposits?

Sounds like a question you need to direct to your banker.

If the net profits are distributed at the end of the year to the holders, is this considered a taxable event?

Again you should consult tax people on this kind of question.

If one is not liable for income taxes according to the definitions in the tax code, does a UBO change their status?

You've hit the nail on the head! From what we've been seeing going on out there in the so-called 'tax courts' - it doesn't matter what the law says - the corrupt courts will do whatever they are told to do. The question is are these judges corrupt or being black-mailed like closing lawyers (acting as IRS agents) are who defraud us out of our property and Miranda rights?

Can one use the funds in the UBO throughout the year; deposit paychecks into the trust?

Keep in mind the trust owns what it owns and you own what you own - being two distinctly separate entitites.

Do the trustees resign? I saw the contents of the UBO and there was something about that.

This final question does not make sense to me....

[DaleSVP]

Patricia,

This article is a clear demonstration of how the IRS and their co-conspirators terrorize the American public. They scare people by misinforming and misleading them. Your article talks about abusive trusts or in other words abusing trusts in ways that are not legal or extraordinary. They even say this in the article. BUT it is not pointed out that trusts ARE legal to use in countless ways and have been legally used for centuries. In fact trusts and especially UBOs are the fastest growing business entity in the country. They are not statutory entities over which the statutory government has more control. Which explains in part why various government agencies HATE trusts and especially UBOs.

With all of the ILLEGAL and bullying abuse of taxpayers going on by the IRS, courts and their lawyer agents it is most likely a set-up in the persecution of this person subject of this article. One CANNOT BELIEVE anything coming out of The System if the immediate effect is FEAR - because The System uses ignorance and fear to control and manipulate. So one must do their own research. For instance did the article or the IRS mention these court cases showing how they abuse, mislead and falsely imprison innocent taxpayers:

http://svpvril.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=248

If you go to this post you will see where certain specific types of trusts actually convey tax-exempt status according to the government itself:
http://svpvril.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=280
http://www.svpvril.com/pdffiles/EIN_trust.pdf

The article does not tell us this fact do they? How covenient for them and inconvenient for us.

Therefore the article and the events it describes were designed to INTIMIDATE (terrorize) people into doing something they would not normally do - and that is the government's own definition of 'terrorism'. But it must be understood the IRS is not what most people misbelieve it is:

http://www.svpvril.com/meador_it.html

[Patricia]

Thank you for the references Dale.. and yes sir, I am aware of the tactics
utilized with many things.
I would imagine the so called legal trusts are used within a thin margin
group.
I saw a report that states that 1 person such as Bill Gates is worth so much that someone like him would make up approximately 92 percent
of the poor to middle class of people.
In the same day I read that Bill Gates went Euro.
Imagine that! That sends a loud and clear message.

Is there some viable reason that people used to put money in
Switzerland banks?


Gees.. all of a sudden my Credit union has hit me up with fines the last
3 months for not touching my account.
Now I know why the ole timers buried their money.

I am personally discouraged with investments of any sorts in this country.
I lost big with investments through a 401K in a large corp that Senator Frist headed.(HCA Corp)
They locked it so you could not withdraw and pow.. they win and you loose.
12 years worth of investment.
They sell and the Corp that rehires you loses everyones records..
and gives you less pay to hold a position.
I say invest in gold that is not tied up in any corps names that is being
scrutinized now by law.
Such as right now the word on TV today that everyone is pawning jewelry
and such for gas. (Anyone remember Nixon era?)
Perhaps FEAR can be beneficial. Personally I find that going with the flow
and not stir the stuff in toilets will keep one safer.
Going to jail for what one believes in is not the answer.
There are other ways and we must all remember that
always"this too shall pass".
Good luck for all those that are in the UBO Trusts.

Last but not least..
Take a good hard look at what happens at the end of ones life .
I have worked for extremely wealthy people that ended in nursing homes that charged as high as $3000 for a "room" at the ritz for the elderly.
I have contracted to work in several of those places.
The care as I could see it was worse than those that had medicaid
clients in them.
I refused to return for the things that I witness there.
Any other place forces one to eliminate any credits more than $2000 at any one time.
So I say.. what is all the fuss all about.

Dale, I hope you do not mind me expressing my veiws too.

~Pat~

[DaleSVP]

Patricia, sounds like you are not unlike a great many people who want nothing more than to be left alone and to feel safe. People are moving to UBOs and similar legal structures to protect their privacy and property. That is all. So who are they afraid of? Who has been and is looting them? Three guesses and the first two don't count!

People could and did place funds in Switzerland because they had good privacy protection. Not any more...

Some Caribbean countries had/have good privacy laws. So their economies are exploding as people try to place their money in safety from the moochers and looters.

The entire emerging movement some call the "Patriot" movement or "Common Law" movement is for no other reason than people are being stolen from, threatened, businesses, families and lives ruined and people are seeking relief and safety. It is supposed if they weren't being preyed upon they wouldn't feel the need for protection.

I don't know what any solution would be. Society is in a bad way. I hear from people all over the country and how they are being persecuted, preyed upon, stolen from, harassed, hounded and even imprisoned. It is going on all over the country almost as though there is a concerted effort to strip America and Americans of everything they think they own including their lives and liberties.

Gates is moving his assets into Euros because so many others are too. If the world's wealthy people and other countries dump American dollars for some other currency it is we the little people who pay when those dollars suddenly become worthless and the"price" of a loaf of white bread goes to US$100 or more. When (not if) this happens the streets will not be a pleasant place....

[Jfoster42]

Hello,

Q: Can one issue multiple TCU line items per beneficiary? Specifically the TCUs represent a percentage share from a group within the organization, so if one were to belong to multiple groups, we would want to account for them seperately in the list of certificate holders.

A: I never heard that a trust is ONLY groups within that organization. It could be this way and it can be individuals. I also never heard of "multiple TCU line items". To me the TCUs represent a share in benefits generated by the trust. Of course, I could be wrong.

Q: Also, do all beneficiaries and trustees have to be legal entities, such as corporations or individuals, or can they be a department in the organization?

A: I don't know that ANY beneficiary HAS to be a legal entity. People can be beneficiaries.

Thanks,
J.Foster

[Jfoster42]

Hello,

We were thinking of using the UBOT in this kind of manor and are looking for any feedback...

We have an organization that owns a number of assets including IP and Software applications. The organization is peer-based with a number of invited contributors who provide capital and/or labor to build products. The contributors are given "levels" in the organization which give access to profit sharing from software sales and organization decision making under a concensous building model.

The organization is broken up into 13 groups, each responsible for a different aspect of developing the product. When $1 comes in, it's split 13 ways, and then divded by the number of profit shares with each person having as many shares as their number of odd numbered levels.

Each level costs linearly more than the previous, one can have levels in different groups. People that own at least 2 levels also get votes on key decisions with as many votes as their number of even numbered levels.

Finally, there's a community of users who provide content, sale referrals and other ad hoc contributions. In actuality, when $1 comes in, it's split 50/50, half goes to the 13 groups and half goes to the community. The money in the community pool is distributed via a rewards program to these ad-hoc community contributors. (this community is also where invites to org membership takes place)

(this structure is technically taken from a more generic institution design we're developing which may or may not have a product distributed outside of the community)

--
What we'd like to do is put the software and IP assets in a trust which operates a corporation to conduct business, generate revenue and then use the rest of the trust structure to manage the profit sharing and direction. The thinking was that people with vote levels are trustees and people with profit levels (which is everyone+everyone with vote levels) are beneficiaries. What seams unclear is if there's too much occlusion between the operators and beneficiaries in that case.

Do we build some sort of mechanism for a NFP or other LLC structure to be the trustee and make the beneficiaries people with profit sharing levels?

It seems the nature of trusts is that beneficiaries do not have access to decision making, but is that all decision making, or just specific organization ones such as those related to distributing profits, like what % and when. (Can those things be bound by the orgs constitution). If there was a retail store as a trust asset, can a beneficiary decide things like what hours it's open?

(If interested, we have some diagrams I can post that outline the nature of the org structure.)

Thanks for any input, the UBOT package has already been very helpful in helping us shape some initial adaptations...

J.Foster

[DaleSVP]

Sounds interesting but I think a bit complicated for me. I can appreciate your having many questions. Why not, for planning sake, break your organization down into discrete parts/groups, etc.?

(The UBO package included a pamphlet of court citations. Many of your questions can be answered in this pamphlet.)

It is my understanding a beneficiary can have NO say WHATSOEVER in the management of the trust - else it would not qualify to be a trust.

Your beneficiaries can of course manage their groups so long as they don't participate in the running of the umbrella trust. But trust commitments are to be done by trustees. Perhaps each group could elect a group member that also serves as one of many trustees OR as an advisor on a Board of Advisors to the Board of Trustees? That is the way I would assemble such a complex organization. Or assemble multiple trusts under an umbrella trust. Or multiple trusts wherein each group being the trustee of the other trust's beneficiaries, etc. Tie them altogether with performance benchmarks.....

Again I highly recommend you find a copy of "Bogert on Trusts" as this volume is considered the "trust bible".

[Jfoster42]

That makes sense, when looking through the documentation provided in the kit, it looks like we could potentially create a Members trust and a community trust. The members trust is broken into 13 sub-trusts. So taking from your reply, we might do something like:

The members trust is the trustee for the sub trusts, each sub trusts elects a member for the board of advisors to the members umbrella trust. Each subtrust is repsonsible for working on their individual project and then the board of advisors helps to shape the governing plan.


"Bogert on Trusts" - thanks, I found a used copy online I've ordered for ongoing reference. We'll also dive into more of those citations.

From the onset, it seems like the biggest issue that may derail our usage of the business trust may be state residency and having to pay taxes on total income rather than income derived from a specific state. It seems like a further complication that we view the labor as what's being exchanged for certificates, so if we had a member in one state, such as CT, even though we originated in WA, CT could view that as being a resident rather than foreign entity, but that may be something we can accomidate by re-thinking how we classify the exchange.

The other issue we have is that the beneficiaries need to be able to vote on actions the trust makes which looks to break the whole model...

Thanks for your help
j.foster

[DaleSVP]

The tax issue is one of doing away with income taxes altogether. There are a myriad of organizations working to that end. Join one and help free ourselves from constructive slavery.

I believe the beneficiaries can offer suggestions to the trustees but they can't actually have a say. Best research this point as I'm sure there is a solution 'out there'.